Sarah, Beth, Sam, Rebecca, Holly, and Juno go on a relaxing girls trip. That's great. Then a bunch of 'em die horrifically. That's bad. The Descent hit the big screen in 2005, written and directed by Neil Marshall, and starring Shauna Macdonald and Natalie Mendoza. We discuss how to not die first in this cave full of monsters. We also go hard for our girl Juno because she deserves some love, y'all.
Sarah, Beth, Sam, Rebecca, Holly, and Juno go on a relaxing girls trip. That's great. Then a bunch of 'em die horrifically. That's bad. The Descent hit the big screen in 2005, written and directed by Neil Marshall, and starring Shauna Macdonald and Natalie Mendoza. We discuss how to not die first in this cave full of monsters. We also go hard for our girl Juno because she deserves some love, y'all.
Even when she comes out of it and the one is like standing on her head and he's got like, the cream of wheat and shit coming out of his mouth like going like, I was like oh my god eugh what is that?
Tawny:Cream of wheat?
Miles:What is it? What is what is coming out?Lik, Yo, Like, they just automatically have this like secretion coming out of it like what does that do? What's the purpose does that serve like?
Tawny:Just to be gross. Just to be fucking gross?
Chris:Hello, welcome to Survivor's Ed how to not die first in a horror movie. I'm Chris.
Tawny:I'm Tawny,
Miles:I'm Miles
Chris:and we are 2 Blacks and a Mexican. Here to talk about that time six women went into a cave.
Tawny:A cave
Chris:Yeah
Miles:Yeah, right.
Chris:So Survivor's Ed Survivor's Ed is our weekly podcast where we talk about movies of all kinds, and really just dive into the rules for survival, particularly for our people of color in those films. This is a fun show that we really just take time to analyze the movies that we love the movies that we enjoy the movies, we laugh at the movies that scare us and make us think it's it can it can run the gamut. And this week, we are talking about The Descent. This is a 2005 2006 horror movie by Neil Marshall, about six women who go into a cave, and monsters are in there, and it's scary. And people die. And it's a horror movie, so on and so forth and likewise. I say 2005 2006 because they actually came out in the United Kingdom in 2005 came out in the States in 2006. So for our 'Murican brains, it came out in 2006.
Tawny:'Murica 2006
Miles:It didn't.
Chris:For us that's it's all it's all relative.
Miles:Right
Tawny:It's only here that matters then.
Chris:Only year that matters to me are came out right here in States. So I guess I'll just we'll just start off what is the situation with The Descent?
Tawny:We have so like the opening sequence of the expository and a very important expository opening sequence of three, three of the main characters, right, it's Beth, Sarah and Juno, who has is possibly the coolest name in this whloe, easily the coolest name in this whole movie other than Star.
Chris:When you got names like Sarah
Tawny:We'll talk about, it's almost like my college. entering class. There were 75 Sara's 250. Catherine's
Chris:Probably probably a few Beths.
Miles:Yeah, this is like the the whitest like like Beth Sarah Rebecca
Tawny:Rebecca Sam
Chris:Sam Holly.
Miles:Sam, yeah, Name is actually Holly
Tawny:Aww
Chris:I mean it's not exclusive to white people.
Tawny:Holly's one that's a little quirky. Right? Like she's Holly comes closest to being a person of color. That's not a person of color because she's British.
Chris:Yeah. But she drives me crazy. But opening sequence is great. A part of the reason what why I really I just wanted to camp out on it for a second because like, I love how it does a good job of like setting up the character dynamics, that wordless moment between Juno, Sarah's husband, and then Sarah and that moment the husband has in the car, right before he
Tawny:And then also the the dynamic of Beth. Like the the dies. Where it's just like you can read so much in that scene without any of any dialogue. husband. I think his name's Paul. He like rushes to. I think she gets pushed in the water. It's a joke.
Chris:Yep yep
Tawny:And then he rushes over to get her out. And he's taking her helmet off. And she's just kind of like, she's soaking it up. And then maybe, maybe that's all normal. And then all of a sudden, Beth like, they show Beth right? And she looks over and she's like, Ummm so that's. So that's the sort of like Core i think that's the core emotional dynamic of the rest of the movie, right? Is that that tension of that? And the way those three characters sort of like what their fates end up being. And of course, you know, we have immediately Paul and the daughter who's I can't remember the daughter's name or if they gave
Chris:Jessica
Tawny:Jessica, immediately, like, there's a moment the moment In the car where they're driving away and the husband's cold sort of cold toward Sara, and then immediately like dies viciously like in the
Chris:Horroribly
Tawny:On a Final Destination level of like, poles from the car in front of you driving through your head.
Chris:So well like, executed like when you see you're veering off. And you as a viewer can tell what's about to happen. It's,
Tawny:It's hideous, you can see it for a few seconds coming, you know, before it happens. And it's just it's like, it's just and I was reading something that was like, Oh, it's so like somebody who's like, Oh, that's not like, some critic was like, Oh, that's not realistic. And I'm like, I'm sorry, like, realistic? Like, what?
Chris:What for him to die? Yeah, it's a freak accident. That's the whole point.
Miles:Yeah.
Chris:Yeah
Tawny:Is that it's a fucking ugly, hideous freak accident. That doesn't make any sense. And it's completely jarring.
Chris:Yeah
Tawny:And I think that's effective in that way.
Miles:Yeah. Like, I would be careful with saying like, something is not realistic, like, maybe not common. But I there was a, there was a guy that we I went to high school with, where he got into a car accident. And he was like, he bowled he was like a bowler. And the ball was like, I mean, the bowling ball was on the seat when he you know, got he didn't like he hit something. And then the bowling ball ended up like landing crushing his head, like
Tawny:Oh my god aw
Miles:In the car. So that's so right. Like, you would not expect that to happen at all. So I mean, yeah. Is it unlikely for sure. But I mean, that could happen. Like,
Chris:For sure. Yeah.
Miles:But it's like, it's crazy. The thing that I don't know, like, how much time has passed when we get to that point, but they're doing some pretty good storytelling with in a very short period of time, because just in that little opening scene of them, like kayaking, or whatever, is that kayaking?
Tawny:Where it's like whitewater rafting or something
Miles:Yeah rafting
Tawny:I wouldn't do if you gave me a $5 million. I'm like you motherfuckers are crazy. I don't know about that whole
Miles:White people watching this please Sound off in the comments.
Tawny:Like,explain this, explain
Miles:Like let us know what that is. We know, you know, nah, but like that, the story like that them get from there to them stopping and you find out everything you need to know pretty much right there in that little window. And then, like not even minutes later, the husband is dead. It's like, yo, they waste no time setting this up. And it actually works perfectly to me. Like, I have no complaints, and that they I think the fun thing about this movie is like, I didn't know anything about it. I'd never seen a preview for it. never even heard of it, honestly. And I just happened to be like watching TV or something one day, and it was just on. And if you don't know what this movie is about, and you watch it, this is a treat. Like if you have because I was just kind of into the the dynamic of them being stuck in this cave. Like that was freaking me out. Like just that alone. And then when they introduced like, like this these things down him like whoa, what the hell I just wasn't expecting that
Chris:Yep
Miles:I thought this movie was about them being stuck in this cave
Tawny:Like, as if claustrophobia was not enough in that fucking scene where I'm like, I'd like the first time I watched that I was like,
Chris:Yeah, so that scene. Yeah, Sarah is get stuck in that tight passageway. And I think it's Beth that's right ahead of her. And she sort of has to talk her through it. I feel like the other three of us had this the text exchange of like being anxiety of that scene. And I always have to ask myself like that. This is the this movie and that scene is always when I asked myself am I claustrophobic? Because, like, i never think i am
Miles:Oh I definitely am. I am for sure. Like
Chris:You are. Yeah,
Tawny:Yeah. If anything, like if there's anything I'm afraid of, like, I'm not really afraid of heights. Like I don't like there's not afraid of spiders or snakes. But like, yeah, being inside somewhere and not being able to get out like not even be able to move. Like if you ever like I remember one time I went to I made this stupid ass mistake when I was like in my 20s of going to Universal City Walk on New Year's Eve. And like you could not move like it was like shoulder to shoulder and I started like freaking the fuck out. So I'm like, I can't move. And I'm like, I don't know how people do this. I don't like and and, you know, this is one of the reasons I'm like, I'm not a big like, concert goer like I don't want people touching me. I don't want people near me. Like I don't want to be able to not move.
Miles:See, I don't I don't have it in those circumstances. Like I'm actually I mean concerts are like annoying just because the amount of it I don't like a lot of people. But I think like, if I did, the idea of not being able to move my arms, for some reason is frightening to me. Like I've, I remember, like, as a kid, I don't know playin on one of my cousins or something. And you know, you go into a box or basket or something and you go under, and like, your cousin won't let you from out of there where they sit on top of it. I remember this freaking out underneath there
Tawny:Yeah
Miles:Because I could not move. Like the air is like, you know, it's harder to breathe like I tight like spaces. Like, that freaks me out.
Chris:Yeah, no, I, it's funny, because I don't think I actually have that fear. But that seems still gives me enormous anxiety. Like, I have a fear. Like there's, I think it's one of those things where there's fears that you have that we may or may not have, like any sort of irrational fear or phobia about a thing. But because of just the human survival element, like, I don't really have a fear of heights. But if I'm standing on the top of like, a, something with no rails, and it's like, really far, I'm not going close to the edge. And like, it's, I don't think it's because like, I'm afraid of heights. It's just like, there's a part of you that's like, it doesn't matter who you are. There's some part of you that feels something and I think that that scene actually does a good job of like, because you can tell like, in that scene, like she Sarah can, she can get through, right, like you can visibly tell that she could get through. It's not like, she can't move. It's like she has this moment where she suddenly can't breathe and everything feels tight. And like, that's why Beth has to sort of talk her through it. Because like, it's not like, like, Sarah is no larger than any of the other women there. There's no, there's no reason to believe that she's actually unable to get through. It's just the mental. The the psychological moment you know,
Tawny:Right That whole like, you know, let's talk about the descent. Right? Like,
Chris:Yeah,
Tawny:The Decsent into fucking the fucking despair, and darkness and the madness, right? Like, that's what it's like, harder darkness shit. And there's a I saw, like, there's some article online that compared that moment where she emerges from that like mysterious read vomit liquid, like, blood, like blood vomit, whatever it is
Chris:The cover image. Yeah
Tawny:The right and that's, um, like, the the scene where Martin Sheen, like, comes up out of the water and Apocalypse Now. And it's like, it's like, yeah, this like, Okay, I'm just like, she emerges from this like, crucible of like, shit. And she decides she's gonna be insane.
Chris:Yeha, you know what? Imma just be insane.
Tawny:Just gonna be insane. Like, and that, you know, and that's, and that's sort of the note, you know, that we that we end on I think is like,
Miles:Which is like, which is technically like, ridiculous, but she is so it feels so earned. I actually
Tawny:It is
Miles:Actually, I'm with it, like, yeah, now I don't have time for anything now, but to survive and make it out of here. Like,
Tawny:And, like, fuck shit up
Miles:it works. Yeah, it works so well. And like, you the direction that she goes from that point And that one, I don't know.
Tawny:And she's all covered in, you know she's all
Miles:Yeah, I'm assuming that it is just a lot of blood. But I mean, aren't they? They're like, shitting in that in that too. Right. Like, or is that the second movie?
Tawny:They just
Miles:I can't remember like,
Tawny:I don't, let's just talk about it
Miles:I think is the second movie, I think. But maybe
Tawny:There's some sort of substance that's like coating the top of it. That just makes it look disgusting. Like, makes it looks like sewage. But yeah, she and she goes down and she gets separated from everybody. And she's she's separated, because they find each other right. Like everybody gets separated. There's the scene or like, you know, the things attack. And what's you know, what's really interesting about these creatures, and every time I watch it, I'm sort of taken aback isn't they're actually really fragile. Like, they're not hard to like, they're not that hard.
Chris:Oh Yeah
Tawny:They're vicious and they're feral. And they're gonna come at you with everything they have. But they're not especially tough.
Chris:They're not these superhuman strength type of things. They's more like Gollums
Tawny:Yeah. So like Juno in the beginning Yeah, in the beginning, like I mean, even Gollum is fucking tough like he they talked about like, you can't fucking that guy's like made out of sinew. You know, like, these guys are just they're weak and like, Juno kills one almost easily just with her bare hands almost like it the first
Chris:she was scrapping with that dude, I actually that's why I have a hard time like really hating Juno's because I think you're supposed to
Tawny:I don't hate Juno
Chris:She makes a lot of messed up decisions and does a lot of that. Make her earn the disdain that that she gets from the rest of the group but like when she's scrapping with like, right from jump, she she's like, the, you know, like the mom like we talked about the mom from Gremlins like,
Tawny:Yeah,
Miles:They just gang up on her
Tawny:Like I'm not gonna die
Chris:And you just, you take the situation, you just start handling. She was hey she was Like, they can catch these hands cuz she was, you know, it's a moment because like Holly is obviously she feels responsible for Holly. And when that monster's Holly's already dead, but when he's trying to drag her off, and I was like, Nah, and they, they have that scrap and Juno kills it. It's like, I was on her side. And I, you know, up until that point, this is like, Yeah, I know. I'm not supposed to like Juno cuz she's just doing so many. She's done so many things.
Miles:She's so dope, though.
Chris:Yeah
Miles:But at the same time. I guess. I guess the the, the initial part where I'm not on her side is when they, they get down there. And then they discover that she's like, she she lied to them. And this is not the cave. Yeah, that's this is not the cave that they were supposed to go to. This is some new cave that she wants to them to all discover. Together. Like, bitch, no. okay
Chris:We don't do that!
Miles:I dont wanna do that what?
Tawny:Nobody knows we're down here. Could you have left Could you fucking love to post it with the information?
Chris:Like at the very least
Tawny:You didn't have to inform the caving authorities, whoever they are. They're like, you didn't let the caving people know. And I'm like, there's a system of cave people who know. You know? Like,
Miles:that's where she lost me. Initially. I was like, No, that's, yeah, that whole time, like, I would have had an attitude towards her like from that point forward like she would've been saying stuff and I just wouldn't have been responding or none.
Tawny:All, bitchy.
Chris:Right right right
Tawny:Whatever
Chris:Everytime she talks you just, look over here.
Miles:Like she ain't even saying that knew you and you in the corner she aint even talking to you and you just.
Chris:Right, But that, but that that is what they were doing. Like, some of it was just like, Nah, I mean, but we'll get we'll get more into Juno in a little bit. I know. So but I mean, I have to say I have to talk about the cinematography too, because this this
Tawny:Oh my god
Chris:The filming is so cool. Like, there's so much good use, like the the red of the flares that they're setting off, being kind of the light source. And adding to the sort of dread was so cool. The misleading sort of outside light and stuff and like, it just creates such a sense of genuine tension where you're like, it feels endless, like the caves feel endless. An like every single scene, there' these great wide shots,
Tawny:Like endless and an unremarkable, like in like, undistinct from each other, which is a really terrifying thing.
Miles:Yeah. And they say they I forget who says it but I feel like they say at some point that they're like, two miles or something. I may be wrong, but I feel like somebody said that I don't know if it was Juno where she was like, we're two miles below something like two miles like
Tawny:Like not even, I can concieve of that. Get stop get a new hobby. Like what are you doing?
Miles:Yeah, like what why is this fun? Listen, again, we already kicked it off with the whitewater rafting Nope. Not interested. And then you talk about cave that could you could you comment that you like you combining two things that I have zero interest with, which is cave diving, not interested. And then also some form of rock climbing where you gotta you know, get across these like, have to scale these catacombs and walls down here and hanging for your life. Like what why is this fun? This is a fun?
Chris:listen when what's her name Rebecca when she was doing that, the hooks on the top of the cave Tryna trying to establish the things that which the scene is dope. Like the way that scene is so cool. To me. It's so unique, like the whole setup, but like, while I'm watching her do that I'm like wait, so But no matter what cave you went to, you were prepared to do some stuff like this. Like where you're literally like monkey swinging on this cave. And then putting these things in there and hooking it in and as you go type of stuff where I'm just like,
Tawny:That's fucking amazing, that scene for sure.
Chris:That's Wild and like it was such an another another word list kind of Mount reveal. In terms of her doing the one and there was already a hook in there, it just tells us so much as viewers where you're like, oh, like, and it was cool how like, as they kind of discover it and have the conversation about it, and then more is revealed of like this, nobody uses this anymore. It is over 100 years old. It's like, oh, shoot, like, it's just so cool. Like how they did. The script of this movie, I think is really good. I think that's what I'm getting at is that just the way it's written characters speak, things that need to be spoken. There are some like, a little bit of clunky exposition in the cabin when they first meet up. And they kind of introduce like Rebecca's younger sister, and they have to like, you know, this, there's some like, awkward dialogue of air like, you're my little sister, you know, like, stuff like that. But, but for the most part, there's so many moments where what doesn't need to be said isn't said, but you still get it as a viewer?
Miles:Yes. I think one of the ones where I sort of what I never really thought about was when like they kill the one. And I guess that scar I don't know which one that is.
Tawny:I think So that's my
Chris:So For the viewers or listeners sake. We were all just marveling at the fact that at the end of the movie in the credits, one of the creatures is inexplicably named scar in the credits. And we definitely know that this was not established in the film itself.
Tawny:Long live the king
Chris:We're trying to Around who's scar, how should we know it's scar and where there scars to speak of
Miles:I guess I'm guessing that was him I don't know that they
Tawny:Yeah, no When I was watching it because I was like, kill Okay, I'm gonna pay attention to this.
Chris:I'm looking for scar
Tawny:Because this needs to Makes sense? At some point, but yeah, like they were like, and it's so this is one of those kind of silly moments and we have these in a lot of moives
Miles:That's what i was gonna say
Tawny:Right
Miles:Where they was like she's explaining, like
Tawny:Juno's Like, what am I looking at Sam? And I'm like, Okay, this bitch is a medical students. She's not an evolutionary biologist, for fuck sake. Like, what the fuck does she know about what she's looking at? And they're like, Oh, this creature has evolved this way. And I'm like, I could, I could have told you that. I'm an English major. Yeah,
Miles:Like yo I know that doesn't translate. Okay, like that what you do in your regular job. does not translate to this
Tawny:You're not, yeah He had he kind of had kind of like a at all. thing like going across and so I was like, Oh, I bet that's I bet that's it.
Chris:Like a Kylo Ren situation?
Tawny:He had a little like thing like that. And I was like, I bet that's it because that's really the only creature we get any sort of prolonged look at, like everybody else is just like they're out of the scene. That was a Very good imitation of what happens.
Miles:Yeah
Tawny:like, hissing like, like on the wall
Miles:Yeah and that sound like whatever sound design too you. I remember you brought up like, it's really good. Like is so eerie. And just creepy. Like cuz? When the first time what's the main Sarah? That's the main
Chris:Yeah, yeah yeah
Miles:yeah. When she first is like, in that area, like hearing the sounds for the first time it's so like, that's First of all, I'm in a cave. That's That's number one. That's strike one im two miles.
Chris:Being in a cave,
Miles:Supposedly two miles underground. That's that's a whole nother strike in itself. And you hear whatever the hell that little clicking? No, uh uh, nope. See me back up.
Chris:And that was that was well done to was like, What I like is that. So we watched this movie for the first time with my son about a year ago, about a little over a year, we watched we watch a lot of horror movies around Halloween. And my oldest son has been sort of forcing himself to watch horror movies to kind of be less afraid of them. And this one was was interesting was because you know that first whole segment, there's very little, there's a few little kind of jumpscare type things like when Sara's looking out the window and the thing goes, she has a dream sequence where the thing goes to her head and stuff and yeah, things like that. But when they first reveal the creatures, they don't seem that scary. Like there's a there's a there's a little kind of eerie scene where it looks almost Gollum like it like kind of scampers off. And then there's that weird like scene where it's just standing there like kind of drooling. And those are the couple of times you see them. But that moment when they use the night vision thing. And she's looking around and there's one right there that like he yelled he's gonna be mad at me for sharing this but the just screamed Turn it off.
Miles:That's a great scene
Chris:He just spent the rest of the movie sitting right between me and my wife on the couch.
Tawny:Oh my god That's funny.
Miles:It's a it's a really excellent review because I, I was like watching and at that point is where or right before that I think it's 45 minutes into the movie where the story is just about them trying to get out this cave and we're literally at like, I think 45 to 46 minute and it's not a long movie. We literally add about like 45 minutes. And then you see that you like whoa, what
Chris:Yeah
Miles:This took a whole nother cuz I like when they first show and I like and I was paying attention that a lot of times when they were revealing the creatures they didn't do the normal you know the sound effect the jumpscare sound effect they would just show them
Chris:Yeah,
Miles:And then they would be reacting to it like they wouldn't do any type of sound
Chris:I love that kind of stuff, yeah
Miles:Anything to signal you that there's something I can see that there's something there. And I just I like that I thought that that was like Yeah, I thought that that worked even more
Tawny:Well just it just like the emphasis on like the visual creepiness, right? Like the visual creepiness of like, something skittering into view that's potentially threatening, and like having it not have something announced it sonically. Like that's creepy.
Miles:Yeah It is creepy. And then I mean, they look creepy. I mean, they like
Tawny:They're gross
Miles:They're like pale this just skin , like, deformed obviously. Like they. I mean, what is she say it? They're fully evolved to live down there something whatever.
Tawny:You don't know what you're talking about
Miles:How did you how did you even get any of that information just looking at them?
Tawny:She touches his three times. Fully evolved
Miles:Yeah. They use sounds like how? How you know that? How you know? I don't even know her name. What was her name? I dont even remember her name
Tawny:I think that's Sam is that Sam? The doctor?
Chris:Yeah, the doctor is Sam.
Tawny:She's a weird accent. She's like, She's got something else going on
Chris:Sam who had the most like theatrical of the deaths.
Tawny:Oh, yeah.
Miles:Oh yeah
Chris:Cuz she had the whole like,
Tawny:The eugh on the lines?
Chris:Which is so like, yeah, it's so funny. You know, what's interesting is like that, that that that scene is really cool that like the set pieces really cool the way it plays out. But it almost felt like the death that was meant to be like the cover image. You know what I mean of the film like it to me doesn't quite because of that. It takes me a little bit out of it. Because I'm like watching dramatic like that, you know? Because everybody else kind of just gets offed which I think is cool
Tawny:Or get's their intestines eaten like their I think her sister like in the very next scene.
Chris:She got Yeah, she got evicerated
Tawny:She just get's eaten.
Chris:And I think those those are way more frightening and way more effective. You know?
Miles:Yeah, I was I also didn't understand like, what she was doing. Like she was up there. She had the knife in her hand or whatever. And then she like, puts the knife in her mouth or whatever and. I don't know, I was just it was just a weird like,
Chris:the way it was cut. There was there was like a bunch of cuts.
Miles:Yeah.
Chris:And then she's just dead. And it was like, at first I was like, Did she kill herself? Like nah? He killed her. But like, yeah, there was a weird there was a weird this to that. That whole sequence where I was just like, what's, what's happening? Oh, okay.
Miles:Yeah, cuz it looked like she was gonna try to stab him. And then she was like, No, and then put the knife in your mouth. Like, what was what is this plan? Like I didn't understand like, What the? The strategy was
Chris:If he tries to kiss me. He's gon get this knife.
Miles:Right. And then who, didn't some like,
Tawny:This is like
Miles:Was it Juno, that jumped down after that. Like,
Tawny:this is when we're like, and this is what I appreciated about this movie is like once it starts it's fucking just thing after thing. Like there's not like there's not long stretches of like, no one dying like, and this is the end sequence when we're about to get to the point where it's just Sara and Juno
Chris:Yep.
Tawny:And this is this is basically the movie wiping
Miles:Yeah everyone else out before we get to that point. And at this point, Sarah has already talked to Beth. By the way, I think Juno is unfairly blamed for Beth. Like if I were I'm sorry,
Chris:Yeah I want to talk about that.
Tawny:Beth fucking sneaks up on her like she's in the fucking killing frenzy. How are you gonna come up on someone with the fucking who's wielding a pick axe or whatever the fuck that is.
Miles:Yeah like what are you doing?
Tawny:I don't blame her at all. And then she's like, she just leaves and I'm like, Yeah, she's gonna die. She's bleeding out through her neck. There's nothing to be done.
Miles:Like and there's Monsters. What am I supposed to do
Chris:Let's use that as a segue because I think we're just gonna get there anyway. Let's let's, let's get to our segment. You good homie. And this is where we check in on our people of color. And we did have a conversation. about this and while Juno, actress that Natalie Mendoza is of a great many ethnic backgrounds, among those is Filipino.
Tawny:Spanish
Chris:And in Spanish she is definitely the least white person in this movie. And
Miles:Absolutely. Clearly
Chris:and there's there's her story in this movie is very unique to the rest of the group as well, in which she's very clearly meant to be the villainous kind of character in a lot of ways of the group at least. She's painted as in a very, very negative light through some of her choices and actions early on in the movie and what what what plays out between her and Sarah So, but let Yeah, let's I like where you were going. Tawny. Like, let's talk about the characterization of Juno.
Tawny:I think I find her and I think this is one of the most I mean, this is one of the things that makes the movie so interesting is that you have this character, she's the only person that looks that she's like, she's not a white lady like, and I don't again, whatever. However, the actress identifies, I'm not sure but like, she doesn't like, you know, she's she stands out in that way. Her name is Juno. Right? Like, she's the most competent
Chris:She's alongside Sarah Beth, Rebecca Sam Holly.
Tawny:Just like Juno she's, and she's the most competent, she's the most capable, she's the most strong and badass. And once the monster show up, she's the most ass kicking butt she she. And this is the thing that we learn right in the beginning is like she's messing around with her her bestie's husband. Right. And so so that's, and we, you know, we talked about betrayal, the second betrayal. So that's the first betrayal. And then the second betrayal is the fucking fact that she leads them into this death trap. With no like, like, no way out.
Miles:Which I would argue is the worst, the Worst betrayal is
Tawny:I would, I would agree with that. Like, I. Absolutely that one
Chris:Agreed. This is the one that will get you killed.
Tawny:That one that's gonna get You killed and she It's not her fault that the husband dies. It's not her fault that the child dies like she's not. But but it's not literally that. But But somehow the juxtaposition of those scenes sets it up as though it is there's like there's a connection between that hideous event and the thing that we just saw. And even though it's not literally like one led to another, like in the mind, like in the mind of the viewer or whatever, or the reader. Like, those two things are conjoined even though she really didn't have anything to do with the death of those people and the great tragedy that happened to Sarah, and there's that scene and I love I love that. I love her when Sarah stuck in the thing, and she's freaking out. And Beth tells her, the worst thing that could happen to you has already happened. And, like and I think of that, not because I've ever been stuck in a cave, but like, that's, that's good wisdom. Sometimes, like the worst thing that could already happen is already happened. So fucking chill out. And let's get through it and survive and all that. But like, Juno didn't do that. But there is like the movie makes a connection between you know that, that thing that we see in the the exposition, the expository scene, the opening expository scene and the stuff that comes later and then expounds upon her untrustworthiness with the fact that she fucking leads her friends into this death trap. It's really the second betrayal, but it's really sort of part of the first it's I feel like it's there to like to accentuate that she is a person who can't be trusted, which is what Beth tells Sarah, which I actually think is unfair, because it's Beth's fucking fault. She gets arced in the throat with a pick axe.
Miles:Yeah, like it seems like from that point to like Beth, or from that opening scene, like of the beginning of the movie, Beth has an issue with her. Like cuz she can see like she you know what she's doing or whatever with the other one's friend and she's like, okay, she's fine. Like, she already has an issue with her to begin with. Again, why are you walking up on me while I'm trying to survive killing monsters that I don't feel like it like that's such a shocking scene to me because you the first time I saw that out, you know, I was expecting it was just another thing walking up on her. And maybe it was you know, gonna get her I don't I have no idea
Tawny:What the fuck is Beth doing? What like you just saw her
Miles:Yeah what are you doing. Yeah why are you walking up all creepy and shit
Chris:Yeah If I'm Beth in this situation and It's my POV I'm seeing Juno going ham on this creature with this thing. Now my thought isn't let me go up there and grab her shoulder quietly
Tawny:Sneak up from behind
Chris:Like never that I don't do that to people on a regular day.
Miles:Nope
Chris:Definitely not while fighting cave monsters
Miles:Literally I literally I anounce because like I'm notoriously my house like a quiet Walker. I guess I can sneak up on people easily. Yeah. And I don't purpose I'm not even trying to I'll just somebody will be in the kitchen and I walk in there, grab something out the refrigerator walk out and they'll never know I was in there at all. So I'm like, when they're in there and they're facing the other way. I'm I'm coming in here. I'm walking in because I know you're gonna be scared if you turn around and like yo just announced that you want me like Why? Why would you use like, in specifically in this scenario? What are you doing? Come on, and then she like blamed her like,
Tawny:I know
Miles:To me as if she did it on purpose
Chris:Right, You know it was an accident
Tawny:She left me here. I'm like, What was she gonna do? She pumped, she poked your throat out, you're gonna die like I don't like I don't understand. And this is something I don't understand a lot of these movies, when it's like, we kind of go back for someone, something like that. motherfuckers dead, like someone's good is dead, you just did that's gone. We're done. Like, it's over now, like, move on. I would forgive you, if you like, just let me go survive.
Chris:That's the thing. Like if you were to sort of dial back and sort of track and that's what's to me what is really good about this movie, too, is you can like, characters don't really aside from Beth in that moment. characters don't really make decisions that don't make sense. They make bad decisions in some cases. But the decisions don't like, take me out of the movie. Because the way that characters are built, you start to get it like, for example, when Holly like, freaks out and starts running, because she thinks that there's an accident. Like that's that was up to that point. It's like, yeah, like, by the way she was behaving up to that point, it made sense that she made that decision, even though it was a poor one. And for Juno, I think what's interesting about her character is that I see a version of this movie where you could be following her as the protagonist, and she becomes a very tragic character. Because I see her as an emotionally immature person at the beginning of the movie. Like she, she has clearly developed this illicit relationship with Sarah's husband, who we don't know, we don't fully know, the kind of cont, like, what's the backstory behind how this came to be? Who, you know, what, what, what was going on there. And so you can kind of separate yourself from that, because to me, like, for some reason, that just doesn't hit me as like, okay, I shouldn't like her look at what she's doing. Because I guess there's just so many layers to how a a, an affair can happen. And so I'm like, Okay, and then the cave thing, like she rationalizes it as her attempt to sort of use adventure to bring them together, which again, a very immature way to do that. But like, it's like, okay, she's clearly somebody who has a lot of a lack of maturity and is sort of not not thinking about they think not thinking things through.
Tawny:Yeah
Chris:Sort of very impulsive, very. And that sort of shows up in a lot of her actions up to that point. She's also a survivor. And I think that shows up in the, right from jump when the monsters show up, her fight or flight is fight. And, and so like, all those things, to me make her an interesting character who, in some version of this story, really got like, screwed over
Tawny:No, she's absolutely, like, she's because you really like and I was I read a couple of reviews and it's just like, you can't help but be impressed by her. She's completely, like, competent and badass. And she's the one who sort of knows how to get out of it. But again, just like the fact that she, she's the one it's there. It's her fault, really, that they're in this situation like it's it's 100% her fault. You know, like whatever else happens and whatever other horrible decisions made and whoever other's hand is cut open by the worst rope burn that you've ever seen.
Chris:Oh my god, that rope burn.
Tawny:And then they show it and I'm like don't fucking show me that
Chris:Jeez,
Tawny:I don't need to see it.
Chris:It was so gaping I'm like how are yall just bandaging that
Tawny:Let go let her go. Well, you don't need the ropeburn of up that. But um, she's like, she makes hideous decisions. And but is still somehow like super competent. And then what's interesting is The way she goes out is like, Sarah doesn't hit her through the juggler. She didn't hit her in the chest. She had sort of like the kneecap or something, right? Like it's a grinder leg. And so it's this thing of like, crippling her. But still maybe giving her the opportunity to fight her way out, which I think is sort of interesting. Like, and at that point, Sarah has emerged from her Martin Sheen, Apocalypse Now moment and just decided to go completely fucking ham. And it's like, even though they she sort of Juno gets her out of the fucking chute she's in. She, she's like, I can't help but but pay you back for that shit, bitch. And she gets her right in the knee.
Chris:See, I read that scene differently a little bit differently. Like I thought she was sort of trying to give Juno a worse fate in a way by crippling her and allowing those monsters to kill her. I feel like it would have been mercy to just kill her. But I guess you're right. There's the possibility that she was in, like giving her a chance in a way. But in my head. I'm just like, dang, you just like kneecapped her. And there's like a room full of monsters like,
Tawny:yeah, I guess you're right. That is a possible reading. I just didn't I guess I don't I feel like Juno is so badass at that point.
Miles:Yeah, it was almost like a some level of respect that I know you could possibly handle yourself.
Tawny:That's what I was thinking, for whatever reason.
Chris:Yeah okay, well, that Yeah, the majority might rule in this case, but
Miles:that's not really how I viewed it, though. I mean, I can see that I've used it as her like, yo nah, this is payback time. Which like, I don't know if that's like, equal like trade. I mean, I mean, she didn't kill she didn't kill like, husband or your or your kids.
Chris:Sarah's not only character to intentionally in for all intents and purposes kill someone else
Tawny:but that's the whole thing she goes down into the fucking pit of despair. And she comes back out a complete murderer, like coated in blood, like coated and whatever that red shit is and then and then coated in blood when she and Juno are fighting the cave people off together.
Miles:Cave people
Tawny:The Flintstones fucking Flintstones.
Chris:If we're rounding out how Juno did in this situation, I mean, obviously like, the movie, it's ambiguous, but like, not good.
Miles:And I mean She She even I feel like even prior to that tried to like, they tried to like redeem her. Because before that, she's the one that says we have to find Sara. I can't leave without Sara. And I feel like that's a part of her. guilt or whatever, for obviously cheating. You know
Tawny:She's trying to
Miles:Yeah she's tryna fix things. Yeah,
Tawny:There's a scene where like, early on, we're like, Sarah was like, I wish you like wouldn't treat me like I'm so fragile or whatever. And she's like, I asked you for this. Like Sarah tells Juno like, so apparently, like Sarah is the one who asked Juno to put this trip together.
Chris:Mm hmm.
Tawny:You know, it wasn't like, you know, and so Juno is trying to do her best and trying to make it really meaningful, but at the same time is repeating mistake, like mistakes that are maybe in her character to make, which are those of like being less than honest, you know, being overly aggressive, being like somebody who's, you know, and I think there's like, there's an interesting there's a funny line, like when they're the night like before they all before they head out, where they're all together. And they're, they've they're seeing each other a lot of them for the first time in a while. And nobody knows Holly. And Holly is introduced to Sarah as Juno's protege. And then like, I think it's Rebecca that says, like, I always thought that, Juno would eat her young. Like, and so it's just like, you know, Juno's not nurturing. She's not somebody who really is soft,
Chris:She's hard.
Tawny:She's hard. She's aggressive. And that's, she's fucking hard And.
Miles:She's not bodying shit
Tawny:And she's not smoebody, she's not she's not, you know, she was never gonna be like, and Sarah had that, that maybe that that facet of her where she was like a mother and a wife. And, and, and also there's the reference to that Holly makes when she's like, she says when Oh, yeah, you'll you know, the What's that? what that's like, like thrill seeking, and she makes this reference to like past trips that Juno and Sarah have taken together, where Sarah has clearly been, you know, at least as thrill seeking and adventurous as Juno but like, at some point in her life maybe shifted over. And so that when when we're at the end, and all we have left is Sarah, Sarah and Juno, it's like Sarah is back in like Juno mode, right? Like, she's, she's, she's like, she doesn't have a family anymore. She doesn't have she doesn't have her daughter, her husband, like, she's completely feral. And she goes back to like, whatever it was that and I think they show the photo, but it's like, whatever, who can tell but like, you know, like Holly comments, like, there's this badassery in Sarah, that we see emerge at the end after she comes out of that pool of shit. And she's ready to let her know have it sorry that part it's so gross.
Chris:Tawny ain't gon let that go.
Miles:I mean, it isn't and then even going back now, but like that, even when she comes out of it, and the one is like standing on her head, and he's got like, the cream of wheat and shit coming out of his mouth like, going, Oh my God. What is that?
Tawny:Cream of wheat?
Miles:What is it? What is what is coming out? Like, they just automatically have this like secretion coming out of it. Like, what does that do? What's the purpose? Does that serve like?
Tawny:Just to be gross. Just to be fucking gross
Chris:So what's the rule, yall
Tawny:So what I had said in the text is don't break girl code. The thing that gets Juno killed is that she fucking lies to her friends. She lies to Sarah like, it's a betrayal. Like, it's not that she's, you know, necessarily even, you know, cheating or whatever with with someone who's married, but like, it says, she's, it's her fucking friend. You know? And then secondly, that she fucking lies to her friends again. So like, don't break girl code. Like don't fucking lie to your friends don't try to get around shit with your. And then with Beth right? Like, what maybe she could have done even though in all practical fucking shit. Like, if it were me, I'd be like, sorry, dude, you're dead. I gotta go. Like I'm maybe I'll like if you want. I'll kill you mercifully here before the monsters come to eat you. But like, she lies about that, too. And she could have easily just told the truth.
Chris:Yeah no, that moment? There was a beat in that moment. And
Miles:she was like, trying to give her an opportunity. Like an opportunity to tell the truth.
Tawny:Or to be like I'm so sorry. I'm fucking sorry. She can never say never says it.
Chris:That's it. That's the emotional immaturity thing too. Because like, it's almost like a parent and child situation like when you when you give your kids a chance to fess up something they did. And I actually ma and my wife. We're talking about that with our son, about how much that reminded us of him when like, we catch him in a lie. And it's like, you're very clearly asking a question that, like.
Miles:You know the answer to
Chris:And you saw her die. mhm mhm yeah mhm Like, that's most the way the way Juno responds is
Tawny:She didn't make it
Chris:Childlike. And she she sort of retreats into herself and it makes you just wonder like it to me the layers to her character just imply trauma. Like she's a survival. She's a survivor. And like, it shows up in the fact that she she I mean, her lies are to protect herself. She's not like a she's not like a liar who does it to sort of bolster their
Tawny:Or maliciously sets out like she doesn't
Chris:Right
Tawny:Maliciously set out to be dishonest. It's just like, she's gonna lie to like you said protect herself.
Chris:Yeah,
Miles:Yeah,
Chris:It does. It ruins her in the end.
Miles:Did you guys I don't know if like the I've heard people talk about I know you guys are I got cut out when you guys are talking about the ending. And it's like I've heard people say that there's like, supposedly, she never made it out or something. Is that supposed to be What the? What sad ending is? Yeah. Is it? Yeah, well made it out.
Chris:So what would you watch? What's the last thing you saw? At this time? I think we saw three different versions of the movie like what?
Tawny:So the one that I just watched and I haven't watched this movie for a while from start to finish the one that I just watched. Sarah makes it out. She pops up through the ground. She drives into the car. She's driving all crazy. And then she like stops at some point and then goes to Juno appearing. And then it's like, credits
Miles:yeah, yeah, that's, that's the only version I've seen.
Tawny:There's no, yeah. Okay, go for it, Chris.
Chris:So I watched the unrated version, which I didn't know was that different. But that all happens. And then Sarah wakes up in the cave. And she and she then sees her daughter and she has this vision of her daughter and it pans out almost like almost like the open you know, the opening of Hereditary.
Miles:Yeah
Chris:It pans out does the opposite it starts out but it gets really big. And you just see the cave walls and they get smaller and smaller. And then it goes to credits so
Tawny:And is it like isn't it her with like a birthday cake or like a candle? Yeah
Chris:Yeah a birthday cake. Yeah, it's like a whole like it's a vision and like, I think this shot shows just how deep she actually is in the cave that there's no way she's getting
Miles:Aw damn that's like, way more. out.
Tawny:Yeah
Miles:I mean, the ending like with her in the car is like is like such as, like, what the fuck ending like, yo what just happened like, not only like, it started off, like with just you being lost underground, and it turned into a monster movie, then at the end, it turned to a ghost movie.
Chris:Situation
Miles:Yeah, like what's happening.
Chris:But I actually think both endings kind of work. Because like, that idea of her getting out but being haunted by what she did kind of works. I mean, it doesn't really fit like to her to have that vision doesn't fully fit, but it kind of does in the sense that she was having visions at the beginning of her of her daughter husband's death. So like, it kind of fits. So I think both of these kind of worked in a way one's just a lot more hopeless and sad.
Tawny:Well, she, I think the idea is like she chooses, she chooses madness, you know, which is what, like, she emerges from she emerges and she fucking makes the choice to do this thing to this other person for no other reason other than, like, revenge and personal, like,
Chris:Catharsis
Tawny:Catharsis. And it's like, now she has to contend with, you know, with all of that, like, with, you know, and it's just, I think that was like one of the, you know, the metaphor of the fucking cave in the first place or, or whatever is like, just, and then the name of the movie is not just, you know, it's not just about going down into these caves. It's like going down into the fucking ugliest, deepest, most nasty part of yourself. And like, what do you get? Like, what do you come back with after you have plumbed those depths? And what she comes out with is like, Imma kill motherfuckers like, I'm gonna get revenge on people who've wronged me. And now you know, there's that to contend with is one version of the the ending the one where she's sitting with her daughter, maybe it's just like, I'm stuck here forever in this despair.
Miles:Yeah, that's heavy. And I mean, it's like, ultimately, it's like how you react to hitting rock bottom.
Tawny:Hitting rock bottom
Miles:And her reaction
Chris:Literally,
Miles:She actually, yeah, she actually chooses the the wrong choice. I think like, like, she doesn't like
Tawny:She kills her best ally at the moment.
Miles:Yeah, I don't think that's the right choice. So she literally breaks
Chris:Who's been trying to save you, like, relentlessly, maybe not fully to your knowledge, but she's been doing that, you know, that's Wow. This movie's heavy yall.
Tawny:It really is
Miles:This movie is fire, man. It's really good.
Tawny:It's really good. All those beautiful, like, I was watching it, like, there are so many, like all the different colors, there's like, the whole the red scene. And then there's like some scenes with Juno, where it's green. And then there are some scenes where like, the caves sort of lit up and it's yellow. And then like, they're like when they want to just really throw you off the cameras like on this angle. And then they'll go like this and you're just like, it's so like, disorienting and gross and like jarring and makes you feel completely the claustrophobia. You know, like of a situation like that, like, God, what. Like I don't even know like, how they do it like on a technical level because I think you guys are much better at noticing those technical sort of points than I am. But like what a completely immersive experience in terms of just like being thrown off and feeling like you're stuck somewhere tiny, and like everything's closed in it just it's it does that so well. Like from beginning to end.
Miles:Yeah, it does. And I was saying like I just love like that. That usage of like the practical lights is amazing. It specifically I am not recommending this movie, but if you go watch the second one. You will see why this like the way they lit This is perfect. The way they light the second one is like they you could tell there's lighting. Like everything. You can see everything. You can see the caves. It looks like there's like moving set lighting in there. And this is actually Feels like they are lighting this with fire. They like they lit this scene with an actual torch. It seems like maybe they did some.
Tawny:I think that's what I read was that the director it was like practical light
Miles:I think they did use practical light.
Tawny:Yeah.
Chris:So that's so brilliant
Miles:And it's tricky to shoot like that with that because this is an extremely dark movie. And, but not dark like some movies. I've seen movies where it's like, I can't see anything that's going on This is the way and it's not even because they shot it
Chris:Right with practical light. It's just because well for whatever reason they edited it and they made it dark as hell for some reason. This movie is shot in the dark and using only flames and little you know what, I don't know what those green layers and stuff like that. It's only lit using those The night vision
Miles:And you can still really.
Chris:Yeah
Miles:Man it's so perfectly done though because it shows you just enough for you to not really be able to see the space that you're in but only see still how claustrophobic It is like it's perfect.
Tawny:Fantastic movie like and one that I forget about like when I'm naming or thinking about great horror movies. I'm like I this one easily slips my mind for some reason. And it's so good. Like the the performances are fabulous. The the
Chris:The direction
Tawny:Sound is great, the the cinematography is beautiful. Everything's so good about it. I don't know why, like, I don't think of it more often. And why don't watch it more often.
Chris:Well, it's interesting, I was looking at Neil Marshall, because he wrote and directed it and he hasn't done a ton of things that are of note in the movie space, he did the most recent remake of Hellboy, which I heard was not great. But he has directed some of the best some some really good episodes of Game of Thrones and like Westworld and stuff and so he's definitely still using that eye it's just interesting that we haven't gotten to see more seats. You know this this seems to be the big one that a lot of people still know him for
Miles:It's definitely underrated for sure. Like I feel like I've I've seen this movie actually quite a bit. In fact, when I put it on my wife was like you watching and again, you got to watch it again. I was like, man I'm tryna you know I got to refresh myself because I don't know like
Tawny:Yeah no, for sure I have to do that. We all have to do that every time. Like I'm like, okay, I haven't seen this for a while. I don't want to miss anything important.
Chris:Exactly. You lose. You know, you start to Yeah, I get Yeah, that's that's true. Well, I have a lot of fun talking about this movie, as usual. You know, we had fun
Miles:Been talking about this one for a minute.
Chris:Yeah, like it was just man when I said this the Descent I was like, yes, there's some movies I have to sort of my kids have to that I have to say no, there's no construction work happening. Just my kids jumping on the bed. But
Tawny:Mine aren't here, that's the only reason you don't hear them fucking acting crazy in the background.
Chris:But yeah know, this is a blast to talk about. If you want to, like actually join our Instagram, follow us on Instagram 2BXM podcast, and throw us some suggestions. As the show's been up for a few weeks now and we've really had a lot of fun doing it. Please feel free to like suggest things to us on there suggest things in the comments if you're watching this on YouTube. What what movies should we talk about? We have a long list, but we are happy to consider all kinds of different scary movies to talk about. Because we have a lot of fun doing it. This is Survivor's Ed how to not die first in a horror movie. Please review us rate us on Apple podcasts. Check us out on Spotify, all the places you can find podcasts. And really just join this community and be a part of the conversation. We'll see you next time.